No, I agree too, at least in the U.S. context. So would a lot of historians; here’s a key one, for example, and a good one:
Here in the U.S. too. It’s often a wish of sorts to go back to the days when “Anglo-Saxons” openly declared themselves inherently superior in the U.S., including to provisional “white” groups (Jews, the Irish, Greeks, etc.). [quote=“Enkita, post:124, topic:102644”]
When are we going to get over that? There’s currently one human race. How do you start to eliminate racism (the belief that there are different races with different characteristics that can be identified by such factors as skin colour) when you persist in treating it as a real thing?
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Of course it’s all a fiction (or a bunch of fictions), but let’s not veer, please, towards ignoring how it has real effects.
Saying things here in the U.S. like “There’s just one race, the human race! Can’t we all just get along?” sounds like a naive white plea that we not deal with the complexities of race (which are, yes, mostly negative, but also sometimes positive, especially in terms of culture and solidarity).
Made no assumptions about you. Didn’t even question your argument. I am making the argument that I find it harder to believe that skin color didn’t play a part in it than it is that it didn’t. That’s the argument I made.
The suggestion that you may be intentionally avoiding considering race is fair if you insist on telling other people that they should not consider it.
It is not necessary for the woman who was kicked out to explicitly state that she believes skin color was an issue for anybody else to suspect that it did. t’s true that she has first account of the situation at hand, but it only makes her an expert on her experience, not on other people’s biases. For all we know, she might not want to make that big of a deal about it, for reasons all her own. She may not have thought to address it and thereby allowed for my and other’s interpretation of the facts.
That’s fine, that’s on you. Doesn’t mean others can’t or wont make the assumption themselves.
Again, I think this is perfectly fine. You made your argument and it convinces people or it doesn’t. I myself do not expect to convince you that I am right, only that I made my argument in good faith., and I made the best argument I could. So let’s not take it too personal, I think it’s a shame that its hard to remain unconvinced on the internet without angering the person who was unable to convince us of their argument.
I made no such assumptions, so I’ll take the high road and assume you don’t mean me.
Moving on, I will say that I think its really hard to understand how something like skin color affects those around us, even if they are our children. But that’s just my experience, not a definitive statement of fact.
Coincidentally, I was drawing nudes in life classes at the age of 16 in '83 at the Wichita Art Association*, 55 miles away.
I figure that while nudes would be acceptable at Wichita State University, I suspect probably not over at Friends U or Newman…
*Side note: The Wichita Historical Society used to call us The Art Assassination, and we called them the Hysterical Society.
My 12 (almost 13) yo daughter is all over this, and has been for 6-12 months. I hadn’t realised it was a ‘thing’ though - I thought it was just another of her odd little obsessions. It’s kind of annoying - somehow she got the idea that my contact lens solution was THE thing to use - but it’s basically harmless, she’s showing creativity by trying out different additives and flair, and I guess she’s implicitly learning all sorts of things about mixing different types of materials and the importance of ratios and what not.
I didn’t mean to strongly imply that racism was at play.
I did attempt to make a very strong argument that it cannot be so easily discounted.
Perhaps it was too strong an argument?
Well, I’m sorry if it comes over as a naive white plea but that’s not what I meant. What I meant was that a different narrative needs to be constructed (which still identifies discrimination). I feel more comfortable with the term ‘ethnic group’ which isn’t perfect, but takes account of the fact that, for instance, two Afro-Caribbeans and one Pakistani of my acquaintance were treated as ‘white’ as a result of education and background. (Private schools and Oxbridge, how did you guess?) In England social class still mostly trumps skin colour.
I know terminology is far from everything, but it’s a start.
Edit - the point I want to stress is that racism exists as a thing, but it is wrong in principle, not wrong in application. The narrative is not that the policeman is wrong to discriminate against different races but that his belief that there are different races is actually wrong. People are perfectly entitled to different ethnicities (so long as they don’t claim to superiority) but authority figures shouldn’t be allowed to take account of them.
I’m just seeing speculation. And i do entertain that color might’ve played a factor but it seems that a few on here are more sure it must be the case. I lean on the side of caution until evidence shows otherwise, if you think it’s a strong argument then ok.
Ultimately no one here is saying racism doesn’t happen. Preaching to the choir here.
OH - wait a minute. This is why there were buckets and gallons of glue near the front door of the craft store when we were looking for a mothers day gift.
And my takeaway is that it’s supposedly MUCH more important to make the (obvious) point that we don’t know for 100% sure that racism was a factor, than it is to point out that racism probably was a factor.
My family in the US tell me this. Please don’t think I’m trying to minimise things. We have dreadful cases of discrmination and injustice over here too, it’s just that it seems to be more by groups of individuals rather than being institutional - though there are large organisations like the Metropolitan Police that are described as “Institutionally racist”.
I’m not going into my own experience in this area except to say that my family is of rather mixed ethnic origin and are not all “white”. But the worst discrimination we have ever experienced was by a white official against a white member of the family who did not comply with his view of the role of women (yup, a fundie Evangelical). And this person was eventually put in his place by a judge.
- but it’s basically harmless, she’s showing creativity by trying out different additives and flair, and I guess she’s implicitly learning all sorts of things about mixing different types of materials and the importance of ratios and what not.
And i’m happy that her curiosity is piqued by it all. Has she looked into other chemistry projects or maker type projects?