Aliens! 👽

[Barradeno]

Something like this?

Cultural observation post

[NickyG]

@GulliverFoyle

Stanisław Lem got a lot of mileage out the conceit that understanding may be next to impossible even if they’re less advance than us.

There’s a wide sea between full understanding (not even possible between two married humans, or siblings, or parents and children), and partial understanding. Then there are degrees of partial understanding. We know quite a bit about bees, but we sure don’t know what it’s like to BE a bee.

[GulliverFoyle]

I don’t necessarily agree with Lem. But it’s an interesting possibility. In truth it’s probably not something we could know until we had the chance to actually try and communicate with aliens. It’s what Iain M. Banks called an outside context problem. We have a sample size of zero and therefore no baseline to guess.

[NickyG]

There are a number of people who claim to be in contact with “aliens” you know, although their claims inherently cannot be scientifically validated, at least not at this time. I’ve decided that it’s stupid to be 100% convinced of anything, and I very much leave open as a possibility that at least some of them are not full of shit.

I also believe the multiverse is a computer made out of existence and consciousness, “god” is an AI, and we are its subroutines. I’m sure there’s an awful lot you and I probably wouldn’t agree on, though…

[GulliverFoyle]

@NickyG

I’ve decided that it’s stupid to be 100% convinced of anything,

Insofar as everything is always subject to doubt, I agree. It’s only rational.

@NickyG

and I very much leave open as a possibility that at least some of them are not full of shit.

It’s certainly possible. Just extremely unlikely. I don’t discount the possibility. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I would be happy to someday be proven wrong.

@NickyG

I also believe the multiverse is a computer made out of existence and consciousness,

Not entirely sure what you mean by made out of existence. AFAIK, existence is a condition, not a composition. I suspect consciousness is a lot less common and a lot less important to the universe than it seems to us, and that even in us it serves more as a narrator than a pilot. But that’s both well outside my wheelhouse and way beyond our present collective understanding. It would be cool to live to see a concrete understanding of consciousness.

But on that theme, I suspect that the universe might operate as a sort of material quantum computer. That’s highly speculative though.

@NickyG

“god” is an AI, and we are its subroutines.

Not too different from a modern rendition of the ideas of one my favorite philosophers, Spinoza.

Without assuming you were referring to them, I think the deities humans worship are a projection onto nature of the human ego. As to the possibility of the higher power, could be but again, extraordinary evidence and also probably well beyond anything we’ve ever imagined.

@NickyG

I’m sure there’s an awful lot you and I probably wouldn’t agree on, though…

Is there anything wrong with that? I like sharing the world with those who think and believe differently than myself. It keeps life from getting boring. Disagreement need not be discord.

[NickyG]

@GulliverFoyle

I would be happy to someday be proven wrong.

Well, the guy who ran the UFO project at the Pentagon most recently is coming as close as possible to saying “UFOs are aliens” without actually saying it in specifically those terms. Along with the video evidence, witness accounts – I’d say that’s pretty significant. Keep in mind he’s saying this based on access to a bunch of classified materials, not just what’s been declassified (which is itself quite fascinating).

@GulliverFoyle

But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I suppose this means you vehemently support the declassification of all of the government’s UFO files, and for funding to be approved to pursue this area in a more open way by science.

@GulliverFoyle

Not entirely sure what you mean by made out of existence.

I believe that information is more primary than material reality, I guess you could say. So “existence” is “isness,” it is just the somethingness of something existing, versus nothing. That’s “ingredient” number one. I also think consciousness is essentially primary, although I think we might disagree about what consciousness actually is – I’m not talking about your personality and identity and all that, I’m talking about raw perception itself – I don’t tend to think that this is “generated” by the brain.

@GulliverFoyle

But on that theme, I suspect that the universe might operate as a sort of material quantum computer. That’s highly speculative though.

I would say this is close to what I believe, but it’s not “material,” it’s fundamentally informational in nature, and what we perceive as “material” reality arises from the more primary informational reality.

@GulliverFoyle

Not too different from a modern rendition of the ideas of one my favorite philosophers, Spinoza.

He was a great Illuminatus agent.

@GulliverFoyle

Without assuming you were referring to them, I think the deities humans worship are a projection onto nature of the human ego.

That’s fine for you to think, but it’s not at all how they’ve been described by those cultures themselves, who very much seemed to see them as real beings which they actually interacted with. Now, as a nondualist, I would say that they can be real, and their own entities, and ALSO projections of our own consciousness…

@GulliverFoyle

Is there anything wrong with that? I like sharing the world with those who think and believe differently than myself. It keeps life from getting boring. Disagreement need not be discord.

I tend to agree, although sometimes discord is the appropriate response to disagreement – for instance, if evil fucks run the government, it may be necessary to resist.

[NickyG]

Another point I’ll add to this thread: If UFOs are the craft from entities from another star system, this does not require that they have FTL technology for traveling between stars. Maybe they have generation ships parked inside the clouds of Jupiter, and it took them thousands of years to get here at 10% of c, who knows.

[hecep]

@Melz2

Unless there’s some big alien intervention coming where they help humanity solve all our self-inflicted problems, I still prefer boring.

“Boring” would be the safe bet; I can’t imagine that alien intervention would actually involve disintegrating dictators; sociopathic, greedy, power-mad politicians and CEOs; drug dealers; you-name-it. The alien spacecraft power cells would be drained well before the job was done.

[nungesser]

@NickyG

the US government (essentially) finally acknowledge UFOs as being real.

One of the more interesting parts of the NY Times story, to me, was the government’s admission that there’s multiple storage facilities in Las Vegas for storing and studying chunks of unidentified alloys taken from unidentified aerial craft. That’s the kind of thing you’d hear theorized in books with Betty & Barney Hill stories, but it’s right there in the New York Times, being corrobated by Harry Reid.

[NickyG]

@nungesser

One of the more interesting parts of the NY Times story, to me, was the government’s admission that there’s multiple storage facilities in Las Vegas for storing and studying chunks of unidentified alloys taken from unidentified aerial craft. That’s the kind of thing you’d hear theorized in books with Betty & Barney Hill stories, but it’s right there in the New York Times, being corrobated by Harry Reid.

Did you ever read The Day After Roswell by Philip Corso? I think I read it years ago, or at least read about it, and I just started it again. Very interesting stuff, and from what I can tell, he was credible.

Have you watched any of the TV news interviews with Luis Elizondo that aired a couple weeks back? There’s a handful on Youtube, I recommend watching them – in a few, he’s asked about this very specifically. His answers, both in substance and tone, are quite fascinating.

But I’m not sure why we’re so shocked, really. Many other countries already “went public” about UFOs – Nick Pope ran the UK’s Ministry of Defense UFO program, and he’s totally public about the reality of these things. Belgium was very open about the reality of their major UFO wave in '89-'90. Brazil, France (the COMETA report), so many other examples. The USA is actually way behind the curve when it comes to disclosure. I think that may be because we’re the only country who has a recovered craft, but it might also just be because we’re more idiotic culturally…

[GulliverFoyle]

@NickyG

I suppose this means you vehemently support the declassification of all of the government’s UFO files,

Sure, I’m against most government secrecy. Corruption grows in the dark.

@NickyG

and for funding to be approved to pursue this area in a more open way by science.

Depends where from. Tax money for science should be allocated based on the merits of research proposals. If there’s a evidence that upon declassification can support such a proposal then it deserves as much consideration as any other proposal. Private funding is up to whoever’s money it is.

@NickyG

I believe that information is more primary than material reality,

That’s actually not that controversial a statement in modern science.

@NickyG

That’s “ingredient” number one. I also think consciousness is essentially primary, although I think we might disagree about what consciousness actually is – I’m not talking about your personality and identity and all that, I’m talking about raw perception itself – I don’t tend to think that this is “generated” by the brain.

The best model for consciousness, self-awareness and perception that I’ve come across is the model suggested by Daniel Dennett in Consciousness Explained and Marvin Minsky in The Society of Mind. I don’t mean to be one of those people who answers a question by telling someone to just go read a book, but I don’t think I’d do their related theses justice.

@NickyG

I would say this is close to what I believe, but it’s not “material,” it’s fundamentally informational in nature, and what we perceive as “material” reality arises from the more primary informational reality.

Material might not be the best term. I don’t mean material as in matter, but material as in physical. For instance, the software on a universal touring machine is in a sense abstract from the hardware, but I speculate that the software and hardware of the universe are one in the same. I don’t really think it’s a matter of primacy so much as different ways to interpreting the same physical processes.

@NickyG

That’s fine for you to think, but it’s not at all how they’ve been described by those cultures themselves, who very much seemed to see them as real beings which they actually interacted with.

I take it as read that they wouldn’t agree with me, but it’s still what I regard as the likeliest explanation.

@NickyG

Now, as a nondualist, I would say that they can be real, and their own entities, and ALSO projections of our own consciousness…

That’s an interesting an not unprecedented perspective (as you probably know since you seem aware of philosophy). I don’t quite agree, but that’s probably it’s own thread worth of discussion so table for another time.

@NickyG

I tend to agree, although sometimes discord is the appropriate response to disagreement – for instance, if evil fucks run the government, it may be necessary to resist.

True. I was being a tad flippant. But I don’t personally think discord is appropriate to these disagreements.

@NickyG

Another point I’ll add to this thread: If UFOs are the craft from entities from another star system, this does not require that they have FTL technology for traveling between stars.

I agree, though if I were a betting man I’d probably wager on any alien explorers being closer to what we would think of as machine than organic life, probably similar to von Neumann probes but hopefully purposed for exploring rather than converting.

[anon75430791]

@hecep

“Boring” would be the safe bet; I can’t imagine that alien intervention would actually involve disintegrating dictators; sociopathic, greedy, power-mad politicians and CEOs; drug dealers; you-name-it. The alien spacecraft power cells would be drained well before the job was done.

This of course hinges on the idea that Aliens are the lesser evil.

[NickyG]

@GulliverFoyle

That’s actually not that controversial a statement in modern science.

I know, they are FINALLY getting around to groking what us Illuminati have been saying for thousands of years!

@GulliverFoyle

I don’t mean to be one of those people who answers a question by telling someone to just go read a book, but I don’t think I’d do their related theses justice.

I’ll add it to the “to read” stacks.

@GulliverFoyle

Material might not be the best term. I don’t mean material as in matter, but material as in physical. For instance, the software on a universal touring machine is in a sense abstract from the hardware, but I speculate that the software and hardware of the universe are one in the same. I don’t really think it’s a matter of primacy so much as different ways to interpreting the same physical processes.

See, you’re already a nondualist! Advaita Vedanta spelled all of this out thousands of years ago, btw. The Indians would say this knowledge was given to them by… heh, aliens, essentially! Go figure!

@GulliverFoyle

I take it as read that they wouldn’t agree with me, but it’s still what I regard as the likeliest explanation.

Well again, as a nondulist, I believe that what is symbolic, what is subjective, and what is “real” are all different aspects of the same fundamental nondual reality.

@GulliverFoyle

I agree, though if I were a betting man I’d probably wager on any alien explorers being closer to what we would think of as machine than organic life, probably similar to von Neumann probes but hopefully purposed for exploring rather than converting.

This is also what our human bodies are, in my belief system… ALL intelligence is “artificial” intelligence, at its root… Me, I’m totally fine being a software robot in a simulated physical reality! I think of Earth as a bit of a classroom, a bit of an art project, and a bit of adventure tourism…

[armozel]

I could definitely say something bad regarding said alien intervention but I’m not going to because I’ll die of laughing (if you get where I’m going with this…). X_X

[armozel]

Ah entanglement, I love it but all I can say about is I hope it explains gravity (yeah I’m an LQP conjecture fan).

[GulliverFoyle]

@NickyG

This is also what our human bodies are, in my belief system…

Well, humans are machines, but we’re pretty optimized for staying put on a nice warm planet. These speculative machines would be something quite different. The vessels would be bodies rather than ships to carry bodies. If you’re gonna go cruising around the galaxy, might as well do it with some style.

[FGD135]

UFOs exist, and can be put to good use:

BOFH: Go on then, subcontract us...

[smulder]

@Barradeno

What would be the purpose of spending resources on invading other words?

I heard they have tulip bulbs

[hecep]

@anon75430791

This of course hinges on the idea that Aliens are the lesser evil.

That should be a concern… but I wonder if any visit could be more along the lines of interstellar schadenfreude.

[Mister44]

@GulliverFoyle

I am a physicist, and quantum mechanics is my field. I don’t expect you to believe me just because I say it’s so - that would be bad science - but it is. The short answer is that the results are random, and random noise cannot convey information or causality (which is all information is).

God damn it, I had an idea about just banks of entangled particles, and as long as your bank has a link somehow to the bank who you are trying to communicate with, you could do so. Of course the real world is much more complicated. Though part of me is of the mind that “if you can imagine it, you can find a way to make it work eventually”. At some point that just isn’t going to be the case. In my “realistic” story they too didn’t have FTL travel or FTL communications.