snort!
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Actually, that was one of the first things I noticed when I went to Germany for the first time: I wasnāt expected to be outwardly friendly and smiley all the time, I could just BE, and if there was a reason to have a strong emotion, that was fine, but I didnāt have to playact 24/7. Itās incredibly freeing.
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should we get off your lawn?
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Thanks! Iāve been concentrating on replying in a manner that is more clear, which isnāt always easy if I forget my meds.
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I think itās pretty simple, really. I donāt see myself as dismissing women in that way. Or any other way. Now if I could work out how to purge my languageā¦
Well, I just donāt want to sayā¦
I really really want to visit all the nordic countries!
This is how they wait for the bus in Finland.
Sweden:
Just imagine! Personal space! No one talking to you or making eye contact! Heaven!
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No, no, youāve got it all wrongāIām the two dimensional object that is the object of desire for All Men.
I found the same, and I donāt really find people cold at all - you should look professional, but you arenāt expected to look happy for other peopleās benefit. Itās funny, the place I encountered this was in an international environment where there were quite a few Americans. It was always specifically American women who would try to make me smile - a German friend and I would joke about the American women with horse faces who were trying to assimilate us. The bemusement was mixed with a little concern, in the kind of āwhat did they do to you/is there anyone alive in there?ā way. It can be like meeting the Stepford wives.
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In other words, MRAs be like
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Iām sure you donāt and Iām not accusing you of that. You might think the world seems value neutral, but do you think the people around you do? If you did something that pissed somone else off, or hurt their feelings, and you didnāt realize that you were doing so, and someone finally told you, āhey, that hurts my feelingsā, would that change anything in your mind?
I donāt think the language needs to be purged - it might work out better to find ways of making the word not have the same kind of sting to it for women. I think it becomes less of a problem when women are treated equally in our society.
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When I was first in Germany I was stunned at how people were able have a civilized political discussion (over lunch no less) with differing opinions (gasp) and not have it turn into each side repeating talking points and exchanging insults.
This would be positively shocking in America.
I found Germans to be lovely people. They just donāt have time for your shit.
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Same in France. Personally I prefer to live where if people smile at you, they mean it.
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Iāve often though while out walking in public in the U.S. that the smiles that a lot of strangers flash at each other arise from fear. It often seems tha they want to signal, āWould you please read my smile as an indication that I donāt mean you any harm? And could you please indicate that I donāt need to be afraid of you, by smiling back?ā
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Maybe part of it is that people want to believe that everyone is happy all the time, and coming across someone who is not smiling shatters that superficial reality.
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Then why is it almost always men asking women smile? If its so benign, and āpeopleā want āeveryoneā to be happy all the time, why the gender bias?
Maybe, its because thereās something else afoot?
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Iām not denying that ācat callā culture exists. Iāve never understood the premise to be honest. And this is from someone who was born and raised in Philadelphia, which is only second to NYC when it comes to cat calls because it is hard to manage stuffing a cheese steak into your mouth and screaming āHEY BABY!ā at the same time.
If there is anything a woman likes more than having unsolicited ācomplimentsā screamed at them, its having those ācomplimentsā sprinkled with little bits of chuck beef, cheese wiz, and fried onions.
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I think itās actually helpful to think of the āhey, how about a smile!ā thing thatās so often flung at women in the context of catcalling, since it so often happens outside of what we usually think of as that context. Iāve seen it happen almost everywhere, really, and yeah, the guys doing it usually donāt think of themselves as doing something that at ALL resembles the stereotypical construction worker shouting at women walking by. But there is a resemblance, because itās an assertion of control, or of trying to control.
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I think what bothers me the most about it (other than attempting to control a total stranger) is that guys think that comments like that are a good ice breaker. And it gets doubly worse if the woman smiles nervously (not out of interest, but fear), to which the guy reads as they have their foot in the door and double down. Everything about it is gross. There is nothing wrong with striking up a conversation with a stranger, but donāt start with the expectation (or even the goal) of getting in their pants.
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- Hm, well yes. That is one of the key triggers for changing my behavior. Except that, because, any more, Iām not around people that much and have little reason to be other that civil and polite almost always now it is unlikely that anyone will tell me that in person and I have to look to other forums.
- I used to think that never calling women that might help in that direction. Iām starting to think that it might not do the trick.
Its a subtle one too. Its likeā¦ the passive aggressive cat call. āIām just being nice!ā vs āBOOBIES!ā - its like thereās only two modes, they canāt possibly talk to a woman on the street like a person, gotta comment on her appearance. Its just so weird.
@onemanmob - exactly! They think its an icebreaker! Women howeverā¦ we know its not. And we know we are in literal danger because we canāt tell the ānice guysā from the guys that will attack us if we tell them to shut up.
And then thereās these guys who literally think women like itā¦
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