Yes, this. Friend of mine works for Corvette. He says it’s pretty common for people who’ve not driven a high-perf car to smack it into the garage or a wall or a car across the street from their house, because they’re used to a smaller engine that requires you to stomp on the pedal.
In the context of the US, at least, I’m not sure I agree. It’s a core of modern evangelical movement, and a large number of Americans count themselves as evangelical. It might not be to the degree we see here, but economic success in the US is connected to many as evidence of god’s grace. I’m not saying it to discredit Christianity, since I understand that it’s complex faith with many variants, but prosperity doctrine isn’t an insignificant or fringe doctrine in the American context in anyway.
but who gets to decide what is cult of personality and what is legitimate faith? I think that misses the larger picture of what is happening with American Christianity. We could say that the focus on Jesus is itself a cult of personality (which many Muslims would argue, in fact, as it focuses on a person who was a prophet instead of the ineffable god). The US is very much about cult of personality as a whole in various ways. It’s like we never really got over no longer being part of a monarchy… 
I guess I’d argue that when we get to the business of declaring who or who isn’t a proper christian, it’s already fraught territory. Europeans had some pretty violent and destructive wars over this very key point and I’m personally loath to weigh in as a non-christian. My sister is an evangelical, my dad’s family is catholic, and both are Christians because they understand themselves as such. Is it really my or your place to decide that either or neither of them are proper Christians?
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The fun part is to get right up to the speed limit from the green without trying hard. On a 250cc scooter with CVT there’s no gear song, just a constant engine noise, and that drives Hummer-type drivers insane. They go lumbering past at the 40 second mark well above the speed limit.
The Lambo would be more of a challenge, but much more satisfying to slingshot into a speed trap.
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Yeah. These aren’t the “vow of poverty” types. They literally believe in a god who will make them wealthy in this world.
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Well, we seem to live in a very stupid timeline.
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I agree with your point to a degree. There are several protestant faiths who feel their works are reflected in the blessings in their lives. The rationale being a godly person will have good things happen to them. But…
I still contend the specific type of prosperity doctrine being peddled by the Olsteens of the world is its own unique creature than most other Christians would disagree with, even if they may agree with it in other forms. And as you said the faith has many variants, which is why I am refuting the statement that “This is Christianity now.”
I am not trying to down play this specific belief system, and you’re right that it isn’t truly “fringe”. Mormonism isn’t fringe either, but the majority of Christians disagree with it and certainly doesn’t reflect “Christianity now”. That’s all I’m saying.
Good question. I think it’s like pornography, I know it when I see it. And that isn’t to say these followers aren’t also faithful. I think they would have to be. But I also think they are being manipulated by their leaders.
Do they argue that? Can you send me a link or two explaining that as I haven’t really heard that. Though I confess, I probably haven’t read a lot about what Muslims think about Christianity.
If someone were to say that to me, I would explain that unlike Muhammad, who was just a prophet, Jesus was actually God in the form of man. I wouldn’t blame them if they disagreed or couldn’t wrap their head around that concept. People spend their whole lives wrestling with the concept of the Holy Trinity.
Oh, I agree with that.
Good point, and not trying to do that. I mean I think the Joel Olsteens are Christians of some form. My point was they don’t reflect “Christianity now”.
If your sister views you dad’s family as Christians, they are pretty progressive Evangelicals.
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Yes, that’s a part of the prosperity doctrine, actually, which goes right back to Calvinist beliefs.
Yet those mega churches that peddle this variant of faith are relatively popular. Keep in mind that it’s not an either or, here. One can be charitable and giving, and still believe that having wealth is a sign of god’s favor. I’m sure that plenty of people who attend churches that have this as a part of their faith still believe in helping others.
It’s not the only Christianity, but it is A form of it. There has never been a single Christianity, I’d argue, even prior to the 10th century before the split between the west and east, local practice still predominated.
And that’s going to be different for all of us, though.
Agreed, but that’s the case in pretty much any system where you have someone who is in a leadership position.
They disagree that Jesus was the son of god and argue that it’s a form of idolatry to believe so (@reactionabe?) . They are very much unitary in their belief about god, in that he can’t be manifested in human form - he’s too great to confine him so. Although, imagining god as having a gender probably does that - I’d bet plenty of sufis don’t refer to god as him, but more as it or some such.
That’s your view, from a Christian-centric position - you believe that you’re correct about the ineffable, they believe that they are right about it. They can most certainly wrap their head around the concept, they believe it to be blasphemous - it’s not a lack of understanding of theological concepts, it’s a basic disagreement about them. You can argue all you like, but none of you are really doing to know the truth until you die, and there is either nothing, or whichever is actual right.
But they do, just not it’s totality. It’s like saying that Islamic State or Bin Laden representing Islam now - they are part of it, but aren’t it’s totality and many/most Muslims themselves reject that form of jihad as being legitimate, just like many christians reject naked greed as being part of their faith - but who gets to make that judgement? You? Me? The state? Someone who might not even exist?
I think my sister has some progressive tendencies, but they are also evangelical, so I’m sure it’s hard squaring the circle for her. Honestly, I don’t talk theology with her, because I view it all as an academic, disinterested academic. My view is that it’s all about social structures and contextual truth, not some ineffable truth that humans can’t define. I’m sure that comment wouldn’t go over well!
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This is ridiculous,and unscriptural. The are a plenty of hard working men and women in ministry, but they don’t drive a damn excessively expensive luxury line car nor their members. Many are barely making ends meet or are still on public buses, or walking everywhere,or living from check to check trying to serve or live the true gospel that has nothing to do with money,wealth or mansions, nor over priced cars. This a Babylonian message and heretic spirit to make a mockery of the real message,or scatter the flock,and discourage the unbelieving to see the entire church as hypocrites,liars or money hungry dogs. All over a few false so called preachers & ministers who aren’t truly born again anyway.They’re servants of hell and Baal.
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The “Prosperity Gospel” is a cancer on modern Christianity. It is in actuality not Christianity at all. it is using Christianity to worship their only real god, Greed. Many of Trump’s Cult members are Prosperity Gospel adherents, and believe that anything can be justified, just as long as you claim to be a Christian.
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To the extent that people self-identifying as Christians mean they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ as reported by the New Testament, I’d be skeptical of someone flaunting those teachings claiming they followed them. If people just want to call themselves Christians without meaning they follow those teachings, who am I to disagree? My inexpert understanding is that Christ wasn’t really his name anyway, it was more like a title, in which case I guess he doesn’t have a monopoly on it. But I strongly suspect most who call themselves Christians mean they follow the teachings of Jesus.
All of which is to say that while it’s definitely not my place to say what people should call themselves, I’ll look a little askance at say a billionaire claiming to be a Marxist. Then again, I’m just one more individual with an opinion and no moral or spiritual authority over anyone other than myself. And as an existentialist I don’t believe my opinion carries any special objective significance beyond me, irrespective of whether other people subjectively agree with it.
If I make ask, do most American evangelical Christians you know subscribe to the prosperity gospel? The dozen or so I know don’t and wouldn’t participate in churches that preach it, but those churches don’t have hundreds of thousands of congregants so my anecdotal experience isn’t necessarily representative of wider American evangelical trends. I admit that I don’t really know if the prosperity gospel is statistically dominant in American evangelism.
I feel a little guilty posting this alongside a good serious discussion of Christianity, but…
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No, the highest density of Italian (and other) supercars on the planet is in Vancouver BC. Nobody in Vancouver even notices exotic cars rolling down the street anymore. It’s the vintage muscle cars that capture most of the attention now. The copious volume of McLarens, Lamborghinis, Ferraris and Bentleys are just annoyances and the ‘poor’ foreign ‘students’ drive souped up Mercedes and BMWs.
That’s correct for the vast majority of Muslims (like 99+%), not accounting for related syncretic communities that don’t necessarily even identify as Muslim, e.g. the Druze.
The wiki page on Jesus in Islam is accurate based on what I skimmed, though it really understates how orthodox it is among Muslims to believe Jesus didn’t die on the cross. (Which is part of a long-running problem with wiki pages on Islam and religion more generally that I’m not going to get into.)
Muslims believe four things of major relevance to Christians, either because they concur or have significant disagreements:
- Virgin birth. This is considered a miracle of god, but does not indicate sinlessness.
- That he was a messenger and human prophet of god, not an avatar.
- That god saved him from crucifixion and that he will return to earth to die.
- That he was the Messiah. This confuses Christians and people raised in the tradition, who often equate that status with divinity.
This status as Messiah is important, because it explains why Islamic orthopraxis is so similar to Jewish orthopraxis. Muslims do not believe that Jesus’s message abrogated as much of Mosaic Law as Christians do. And they don’t believe his death was expiation for the sins of mankind, because as far as Muslims are concerned, he was A) Just a man and B) Never died.
(Tagging @Mister44 to make this comment easy for him to find.)
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That is always the face of it, isn’t it?
Beyond the particular, even in the most general terms, that is the face.
A smiling face, makeup, garish expensive fashionˀ, large jewelry, the idea that they rarely wear the same outfit repeatedly. Almost always against an immediate group of backdrop of people showing wealth to significantly lesser degree, followed by a large backdrop of people that almost indistinct, but trying to show wealth. Even if the photo doesn’t show it, it is implied from all the other images that are projected, so one thought leads to the next.
The prosperity religions are by no means just American or Christian. I’t like to call them prosperity cults as a pejorative, as cult is a pejorative term, but as I think of it there are so many secular equivalents- they just seem to have less hypocrisy.
That all written. I lived a quarter block above a Charismatic church that also preached one of the many variations of prosperity doctrine, “What you give will be given back 1000 fold! Your dreams, your desires can come true if you believe in God enough!” (paraphrased)⁾ . Sometimes you could see kids practicing glossolalia. They balanced on a blade of being wary of people and wanting to invite people in. They also, from what I heard, balanced on a fear of doom, damnation, countered with the hope of wealth of health. (The latter may have killed this group, as it was antithetical to doom.) They were odd neighbors for a few years and then one day, something changed. My guess is they hadn’t grown enough. Eventually they went from being friendly to being isolated. They stopped talking to passers by. They shuffled in, and they even had “door guards”. From my memory, could be faulty, eventually they didn’t pay the rent on the space, they were evicted, they broke back in to use the space, they appealed to the community with pathos- that failed.
I ran into somebody from that church some years later. It took me some time to remember her, and I had forgotten that she had also volunteered at an event I was at. She left some fliers on our notice board. She had left another established group. Those that left the ministry she was at before were ostracised, she couldn’t really go back. The pastor was doing well down south, at least she thought so. She was part of a new very strict group and couldn’t talk long. Salvation was her new focus. She blessed me, and disappeared.
There is a cycle of scripture and quotes that are used, like Job 22:21 “Submit to God and be at peace with him; in this way prosperity will come to you.” and Duet 30:5 that talks about multiplying. Not only are the lines cherry picked, but cut and pruned down, sometimes cribbed from different bibles, or reworked and reinterpreted to the point where one would have trouble comparing the same quote across multiple similar churches.
We can criticise it from outside, but for those inside it’s folds, I think it near impossible to not want it to work. The social pressures of other members are strong, and for many, the community is important and they can’t see leaving it. To do so, would be like cutting off a limb.
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Fat Albert, the Blue Angels support plane.
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It turns out that while the husband purchased the car, it was actually God who took out the expensive insurance policies.
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But, dude, this is a Lamb-o-god-i, so it is fine! 
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Vancouver is the only place I’ve ever seen a supercar with a learners sticker.
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Jesus could choose any vehicle from any place and any point in History, and He drive a ‘57 Chevy, and even then never in sight of anyone.
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